15 Comments

  1. Mark Greene

    I agree with your comments about continuing revelation but in conjunction with your post about accountability, I would like to offer another perspective. I don’t believe that the spirit of prophecy and revelation is always commensurate with priesthood authority. Revelation may be given to anyone as the Lord decides. This revelation can have important information for the Church in general or for mankind. This fact is evidenced in the Book of Mormon where prophets seemed to come out of the woodwork and where even babes prophesied. Revelation to any one individual does not necessarily mean that it will become official Church doctrine.

    The problem with thinking that you must have a priesthood office or an education degree in order to speak in the name of the Lord with authority is that once you have this office or degree you tend to think that no one below you can teach you. This problem was discovered and discussed by Pres. Henry Eyring in his 1988 BYU speech “Listen Together”. In this sense, those above are accountable to those below.

    When we say in the Church that we “follow the prophet” what do we mean? Are we following just one man or are we following fifteen prophets? While only one man holds all the keys of the kingdom, I would be concerned if there were discord between those designated as prophets. In such a case, I may even side with a position. This has occurred in the past, notably with the Jerusalem Council in the Book of Acts and with the question of Blacks holding the priesthood in our day. In both cases, discord turned to accord by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. When fifteen prophets agree such as in the proclamation on the family then if I disagree, I hold a dangerous position. The strength of any one voice is in the spirit of prophecy and revelation which requires our spiritual agency to discern. The strength of a prophetic voice is in unity with other prophets, past and present.

  2. Mark Greene

    Bryce:

    The point I was trying to make in my original comment is that all of us are accountable to the spirit of prophecy and revelation including the living prophet. The unity of the living prophet and the apostles comes by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. This is what makes the prophet as a “collective” prophet powerful. Revelation from the spirit of prophecy and revelation may be given to anyone and it may be important revelation. However, priesthood authority and priesthood keys must be followed for revelation to become authoritative or applied church doctrine. If you received a revelation that you thought was important for the Church membership, how would you proceed? The accountability that we all have is doing what the Lord has revealed to us even if it means being taught by someone of lesser authority.

  3. Antony

    Bryce, where do the Lehi’s and Samuel the Lamanite’s fit into the jurisdiction doctrine? They were respectively called to prophecy against the Israelites and the Nephites. Neither was the President of the Church or in the Quorum of 12 or any other position of authority in the then organised Church (at least not that I can discover). What about Isaiah or Jeremiah or the many prophets who were stoned / killed / ostracized for prophesying against the Israelites?

    I am also interested in your “fundamentalist” conversation. The “fundamentalists” that I have spoken to tend more towards wishing there was more revelation in the Church. The complaint is that since the members of the Church find it so hard to follow the council given that more and more is taken from the Church.

    Examples given are:
    – Law of Consecration gets pared down to Law of Tithing.
    – 7 year food and sundry supply becomes 1 year (and last I heard, in some places 3 months or less).
    – …

    The question asked is: Should the individual lower his goal because the majority are not willing to try for the higher goal?

    I am sure you know what Brother Joseph had to say about the Saints in his day (corn-dodger and hemlock knots?), and listening to President Ezra Taft Benson it has not changed much even in our day.

    In no way is this meant as disrespect for the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12, I believe that they are doing the best that they can with what they have been given: I believe that we as a Church though are suffering from the curse of 2 Nephi 28:30.

    As President Hinckley said, we all need to reach a little higher.

  4. Mark Greene

    Should the Apostle Paul have kept his knowledge of no circumcision of the gentile members to himself? He proceeded to introduce his revealed knowledge through the proper priesthood channels of the Church. The Spirit of prophecy and revelation through the presiding authority of the Church at that time was the final arbiter.

  5. Mark Greene

    Paul was an apostle but he was not the presiding prophet of the Church at that time. Are you saying that revelation, even important revelation, only comes to those designated as prophets in the “circle of prophets”? If so, this contradicts your previous statement that “revelation may be given to anyone the Lord chooses”. What was Joel prophesying in Joel 2:28? What did Moses mean in Numbers 11:29? I disagree with your position about teaching what we individually believe to be the truth even if we believe that it valid for the Church in general. If your position were right, Paul should be criticized. However, we do not individually have the right to teach such truths as official church doctrine until it is declared as such by those that have the authority. I asked you if you had received what you think is important revelation for a circle larger than yourself or your family how you should proceed. Your response was to keep it private. I prefer the Apostle Paul’s procedure. He taught what he believed to be revealed truth to the Church but he also took his beliefs before the priesthood authority of the Church where the Spirit of prophecy and revelation through the presiding authority of the Church decided the matter as official Church doctrine. The same procedure should apply to us today. The presiding prophet of the Church has the keys to the knowledge of the spirit of prophecy and revelation as it applies to the Church at a particular time. I believe this is the meaning of D&C 28:2. While the presiding prophet holds these keys and this authority, he does not have exclusive right to the spirit of prophecy and revelation.

  6. I must say, I haven’t received any emails from antis or fundies in quite some time now. I can’t decide whether I miss their emails or not.

    Arguing with them can be entertaining, but certainly wastes a lot of time.

    Great write-up of your email conversation with this fundamentalist. I love the story of Brigham Young preaching on the oracles vs. scriptures. Good stuff!

  7. Benjamin Oram

    This was an interesting conversation. It cause me to recall past teachings on the subject.

    Elder Packer made it clear when he said “leaders receive revelation for their own stewardships. Individuals can receive revelation to guide their own lives. But when one person purports to receive revelation for another person outside his or her own stewardship—such as a Church member who claims to have revelation to guide the entire Church or a person who claims to have a revelation to guide another person over whom he or she has no presiding authority according to the order of the Church—you can be sure that such revelations are not from the Lord.” (Boyd K. Packer, “Prayers and Answers,” Ensign, November 1979, p. 20).

    I think this conversation would also be helped by a definition of “important” revelations. Certainly the revelation that all persons may come closer to Christ through Temple study is important and may be given to an individual through personal revelation. This revelation may passed on to anyone since it comports with the teachings of all the prophets and apostles. However, if by “important” you mean a change in Church policy or a teaching concerning doctrine which is not currently in circulation, that will most definitely not be brought forward by anyone but the presiding authorities of the Church, lest we cease to be a church of order. For additional clarification, here are some talks that speak directly to the subject which I have found helpful.

    Elder Dallin H. Oaks (then Utah Supreme Court Justice) “Revelation,” 1981.
    President Ezra Taft Benson “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet,” Ensign, June 1981.

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