I had a conversation a few months ago about this question. Those that I were discussing this with made the argument that the “heathen,” the term my correspondent used for those who’ve never heard a part or portion of the gospel in mortality, are without the gospel law in mortality, and therefore they will be judged very much like little children, and will most likely all be exalted. Here is a followup that one of them recently emailed me:
I finally found the scripture I was thinking of when I wrote that “the heathen” who “died without law”, (that is, without having heard any form or portion whatsoever of the gospel) are still likely to be saved (and most likely even exalted) in the Celestial Kingdom.
In his discourse to his son about infant baptism, Mormon throws in those who “without the law” and puts them in the same category as those who die as infants, Moroni 8:22:
“For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing— ”
I’ll admit that there is still room for interpretation in light of Section 76, and of course Christ is the final judge of every individual.
I disagree with this interpretation of Moroni 8:22 (a similar scripture can be found in 2 Nephi 9:25-26). I believe this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the gospel, which has serious repercussions to our understanding of God’s plan of redemption, and the work we do in the temple.
Here is the most crucial point – those that have not heard of the gospel in mortality are not like little children; they are still accountable to the law in the eternities. That is why we are so busy preaching the gospel to them in the spirit world, and performing vicarious ordinances for them in the temple (1 Pet. 3:19; 1 Pet. 4:6; cf. D&C 138). If they were without law eternally, then we would treat them the same as little children, who need no ordinances (except sealings), and they would be exalted without being preached to and without vicarious ordinances. There would be no need to redeem the majority of the dead; our current work in the temple would be in vain. But this is not the case. If one wishes to return to the presence of God, it must be through obedience to the principles and ordinances of the gospel. Baptism is not just for those who have heard the gospel, it is for those who haven’t too.
Every person born into this world, whether they have heard the gospel or not, who has reached the age of eight years of age in good health is accountable to the law, has become capable of exercising their agency to do good or do evil (Moro. 7:16; cf. John 1:9), and is therefore “under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law” (Moro. 8:24). A person does not have to have the gospel fully preached to them to be accountable to the law. Being intelligently capable of choosing between good and evil is all that is required to be accountable to the law. Elder Bruce R. McConkie has written:
When a child reaches the age at which he has sufficient mental, spiritual, and physical maturity to be held accountable before God for his acts, he is said to have arrived at the years of accountability. He then knows right from wrong and can exercise his agency to do good or evil. Accordingly he must pay the penalty for his sins, unless he gains a remission of them through repentance and baptism, “For all men must repent and be baptized, and not only men, but women, and children who have arrived at the years of accountability” (D&C 18:42). ((McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 852))
When we reach the age of eight, it is as if each of us in turn partakes of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and each of us becomes fallen under the law, knowledgeable of the difference between good and evil, accountable to it, expelled from our individual Garden of Edens, escorted out of the Celestial Room of the temple, and cut off from the presence of God our Father. All those who are under such a curse are in need of the principles and ordinances of the gospel in order to be redeemed and come back into the presence of God. Indeed, it is through the principles and ordinances of the gospel that we become like little children again, and are thus able to enter into the Celestial Kingdom of God (3 Ne. 11:38; 3 Ne. 9:22; Mark 10:15; Luke 18:17). This adds understanding to why Christ condemned those who mistreat little children with such strong language (Matt. 18:6; Mark 9:24; Luke 17:2; D&C 121:22). Those who offend little children are offending God Himself. It is because little children are still in God’s presence, they are still in their Garden of Eden, they are still in the Celestial Room, they are innocent before God, and as such are not accountable to the law. They never leave God’s presence, and so they are not in need of gospel principles and ordinances to return them to it (Matt. 19:14; Mark 10:14; Luke 18:16).
Because of our fallen state, at some point in mortality or in the spirit world each adult, whether “heathen” or not, will need to have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of their sins, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost in order to enter into the kingdom. In addition, in order to be exalted they will need to be sealed in the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and receive a fulness of the ordinances of the temple. If the “heathen” don’t do this, they will not be saved or exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, just the same as any other person above the age of eight who rejects the principles and ordinances of the gospel in mortality.
So how are we to understand Moroni 8:22? How are we to understand 2 Nephi 9:25-26? Those that are “without the law” have the “power of redemption” granted to them through the redemption of the dead, which is the preaching of the gospel in the spirit world and the vicarious ordinance work performed in the temple (1 Pet. 3:19; 1 Pet. 4:6; cf. D&C 138). This is how those “without law” are delivered by the “power of him” through the Atonement. Elder McConkie noted that this is the very work we are doing in the temple today:
Salvation for the dead is the system by means of which those who “die without a knowledge of the gospel” (D&C 128:5) may gain such knowledge in the spirit world and then, following the vicarious performance of the necessary ordinances, become heirs of salvation on the same basis as though the gospel truths had been obeyed in mortality. ((ibid., 685.))
Some might argue, won’t most of those people in the spirit world accept the gospel, be redeemed, and receive exaltation? I don’t think so. People will accept or reject the gospel in the spirit world the same as they do here on Earth. “For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it” (D&C 132:22; Matt. 7:14; 3 Ne. 14:14; 3 Ne. 27:33). Only those who would have fully embraced the gospel in mortality if they had been given the opportunity will be those who receive salvation and exaltation. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught as was revealed to him by God:
All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom, for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. (D&C 137:7-8) ((Also in Teachings, p. 107.))
Many of those who purposefully lie, cheat, deceive, murder, fornicate, commit whoredomes, etc., are not those same people who would have fully embraced the gospel in mortality if it had been preached to them. They reject light, truth, and goodness, and in doing so are rejecting the light of Christ. Man knows right from wrong without knowing the fulness of the gospel. Each healthy individual who reaches the age of eight will be held accountable for the light they’ve been given (Moro. 7:16; cf. John 1:9). All mankind will be judged “according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts” (D&C 137:8). A full knowledge of the gospel is not required to be so judged. This is why even those who die without a knowledge of the gospel will still be “judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit” (1 Pet. 4:6).
No, those who die without a knowledge of the gospel will not most likely all be exalted. They will be under the same requirements of the gospel law as the rest of us, and will have their agency to accept or reject it.
It sounds like you could also refute your correspondent’s argument by demonstrating that children will not remain children in the next life. They will have to mature, and I imagine this includes living by the law (I’m sure there are some quotes to support this somewhere?).
FWIW, I would use a term other than ‘heathen’ to talk about people who do not know “The Gospel”–perhaps “non-Mormons” or something like that. ‘Heathen’ has connotations of being “unenlightened”, “uncivilized”, or generally “uncouth”. It’s not a very respectable term.
I’m curious as to your opinion, Bryce. Why do you think that the church allow vicarious ordinance work for people who have not accepted the gospel in this life, but who theoretically could have (non-member spouses of members and the like)?
So, it isn’t our job to determine who has and hasn’t procrastinated their repentance, correct?
I’m trying to understand why you believe that relatively few people will repent and join in the afterlife. I think that the vast majority could join in the afterlife without doing damage to God’s plan or the scriptures.
Bryce Haymond said: “Children will not be children in the next life, but they still will not need the gospel ordinances performed for them, ever. They will never be under the gospel law like we are.”
So, are you claiming that children who become exalted will never need temple ordinances? (there is a statement about this printed by the Church).
I think the person who wrote the email to you must look past the fact that experience controlling our bodies was one of the main objectives of this life. If we had removed the mortal experience and had jumped from our pre-mortal (innocent) condition to an immortal and innocent condition, we still would NOT be Gods.
Personal accountability and responsibility are absolutely requisite for exaltation. One does not simply present themselves clean to God and receive exaltation, but through the Atonement they present if you will their diploma from mortality. We must BECOME like Christ in every respect. There is more to His Godhood than complete moral cleanliness; there is experience, trial, knowledge, and action to fit the part.
I have a few comments to bring up. The first is about baptism. It is true that little children who die before reaching an accountable age do not need it to be saved from hell- they were never under the conditions of the law. In every respect, these little children are the very ones who “die without law” because the law is executed to all accountable people regardless of whether they knew the gospel or not- wicked people will go to spirit prison regardless of them knowing the gospel or not- they chose to follow darkness so that is where they go (temporarily anyways)- they are thus under the law.
Now, as far as baptism goes those little children “must” still be baptized once they become to an age of accountability. We know that before the last judgment, everyone will have become accountable for themselves. To answer the law, all those who died without the law (little children, handicapped, etc) will have to be raised- presumably during the millennium, and become accountable. At that point they still “must” choose baptism in order to be saved. Baptism generally just gets accounted as the process where sin is washed away- that being its sole purpose. The real deal is that it is something far beyond that because even Christ had to be baptized to be obedient and he was without sin.
If one reads in 2 Nephi 31:7, it states why Jses had to be baptized. Christ was baptized because it is a commandment of the Father- it being the only way that we enter into a covenant relationship with him. It is an oath we take so to speak when we come into office- that we will “witness” unto the Father that we will be obedient in keeping his commandments. It really is not a debateable issue then- All people must follow Christ in order to be saved, and Christ entered the waters of baptism, not to get a remission of sins but to enter into a holy covenant with him- that is the requirement of the law. Little children must therefore be raised to an accontable age and choose also to follow Christ and witness also that they will be obedient to the commandments- no one is exempt.
The second issue I like to bring up is that concerning just who will and must accept the gospel in the afterlife. Section 138 says that the gospel will be preached to both those who died in their sins without a knowledge of the law (still under the law because they still sinned) and to those who died in transgression having rejected the prophets. Of both those groups, the ones who accept the gospel and live according to god in the spirit (turn their ways around and live righteously) will receive salvation. Salvation is not given to those who do not accept the gospel.
Salvation will come to all except the sons of perdition. Therefore- everyone except the sons of perdition, will and must accept the gospel- repent and be baptized into the kingdom of heaven. So, when we speak of the “heathen nations”, we know that they will be resurrected in the first resurrection. The heaten nations are those who are “under the law” but have no knowledge of the gospel, or not enough knolwedge to understand Christ’s message. It is my opinion that thus all of the heathen nations will accept the gospel and receive eternal life. The passages of not many finding eternal life but many instead finding the wide way leading to death deals strictly with mortality and the “possibilities” of all of Gods children finding and accepting the true gospel while on the earth. For most it is a forgone conclusion because they were never in a position to accept the gospel because it was not on the earth for them to accept. I would bet that less than 1% of 1% (-0.01%) have ever had the opportunities to enter into the gate and find the path leading towards eternal life while in mortality. This is why temples are so important! It is the way provided for all those who found death (spiritual death) to be redeemed into spiritual life.
We should be very careful when stating factually who Christ is able to save. It is not a bad plan (the plan of salvation). We will be amazed in the end to find almost all of Gods children who came into mortality will receive exaltation. It is a good plan! Satan wants us to think that there will be many who fall short of exaltation- eventhe majority. It is no wonder Satan laughs and mocks God right now- he has most of the saints (you and I fellow members) believeing that most will not be saved into celestial glory! Gods plan is far more encompassing than we realize. In the end- mark my words, almost everyone will go on into their exaltation in the Celestial glory.
God created us to become Gods, and when the mists of darkness are finally wisked away (the destruction of Satan and his works) we all will want to be like our heavenly parents- that is why we were created- so that we would find joy- All the saved will thus become gods!
Rob Osborn said: “To answer the law, all those who died without the law (little children, handicapped, etc) will have to be raised- presumably during the millennium, and become accountable.”
That’s a real Oscar Meyer ‘doctrine’ . . . it’s a lot of baloney (or, as the song goes – bologna).
This is a claim that these people are going to go through ANOTHER MORTALITY. Could you cite some scriptures on that? I didn’t think so.
Bryce Haymond said: “The salvation and exaltation of little children is assured, and they are exempt from baptism and the endowment. All that they must do now is be sealed.”
Are you claiming that all children who died before accountability will CHOOSE sealing to a spouse and exaltation? Can you cite some scripture on that? (not the words of a person from a book that contains a disclaimer about its doctrinal surety).
Isn’t the endowment where a person receives the elements that are necessary for a sealing? Isn’t the endowment the very method whereby a person gains the two titles that signify exaltation? Didn’t Joseph Smith teach that exaltation is only available to those persons who gain these two titles? Isn’t the endowment the way whereby a person receives the initiation ceremonies that make it possible to receive these titles and thus be exalted? Doesn’t the Encyclopedia of Mormonism indicate in several articles that the endowment is necessary for exaltation? Are some people simply NOT required to make the covenants of exaltation?
Bryce Haymond said: “All those who are saved in a kingdom which is not the highest of the celestial will not receive eternal life or exaltation, and they will not become gods. They will be angels of God forever (D&C 132:17).”
This is precisely true. And it applies to everyone who gets into the celestial kingdom — including persons who die before achieving the age of accountability. They do not need baptism to gain entrance into that realm but they will only qualify to reside in the lowest third of that place. There is no doctrine in the Church that all such persons will CHOOSE to progress beyond that stage. There are some people who achieve accountability but (for various reasons) are single in mortality and will qualify for the celestial kingdom but NOT choose to progress further (to say nothing of sealed individuals who may CHOOSE not to be exalted). In other words, it is NOT a given fact that all persons who die before accountability will become exalted — such an assumption violates the law of agency.
— The Church Handbook of Instructions instructs that “No baptism or endowment is performed for a child who died before age eight.”
This instruction/policy still does not answer the questions:
Isn’t the endowment where a person receives the elements that are necessary for a sealing? Isn’t the endowment the very method whereby a person gains the two titles that signify exaltation? Didn’t Joseph Smith teach that exaltation is only available to those persons who gain these two titles? Isn’t the endowment the way whereby a person receives the initiation ceremonies that make it possible to receive these titles and thus be exalted? Doesn’t the Encyclopedia of Mormonism indicate in several articles that the endowment is necessary for exaltation? Are some people simply NOT required to make the covenants of exaltation?
I disagree with you Bryce,
This is why-
The “covenant relationship” we make with the Father is a requirement to admittance into his kingdom. This covenant makes certain our standing with God- that we are indeed subject to his laws and understand them enough to obey them- his commandments. This is why Christ “had to be” baptized. He had to enter into a covenant relationship with the Father. The baptism is a witness unto him that you know and will obey his commandments in eternity. We do not baptize deceased little children because it would strip them of their ability to choose on their own. Everyone who comes to earth and hopes to be saved must enter into the covenant relationship with the Father. This is made in the waters of baptism. Certainly little children born in the millennium will have to be baptized so that they can enter into a covenant relationship to the Father. They too will grow up and receive their endowment in the temple.
From your logic exaltation is a guarentee for those who die before becoming accountable. Let me ask you this- when do we or they get married? Is the marriage ceremony that takes place for them performed without any preliminary covenants entered into? You make it seem as if they make no covenants before their marriage. That doesn’t make any sense at all. Do they ever receive the priesthood? If so, through what process?
It is all ilogical. Everyone will have the opportunity to become accountable and then choose and accept Christ and take upon his name and enter into covenant through baptism to meet the requirements of the law- no one is exempt- even those who never sin (Christ being the first).
As far as the resurrection goes- those resurrected during the millennium will only come forth in Terrestrial grade bodies because they are resurrected with the particles of the earth which at that time will be of terrestrial grade. Those resurrected up to this point have received only telestial grade bodies as that is all the glory of the earth is at this time. When the millennium comes they will be quickened (those resurrected) into terrestrial glory bodies. After the millennium all will be quickened again (including all resurrected up to this point) and receive their celestial bodies.
This is a principle not very many people know or understand. We know the earth will die right before Christ comes(pass away by fire) and then be quickened (resurrected) at Christs return and it will abide with a body by the glory it is quickened with- it being the terrestrial glory. The earth will abide inthis glory for a thousand years and then die again and be quickened again into a celestial state. This is the same pattern for man.
And yes almost everyone will keep their seond estate minus just the sons of perdition who lose theirs.
Satans plan wasn’t to bring everyone back. He wants us to think that was what his plan is- it being the plan of the Father- that not one soul should be lost that the Father gives to the savior to save. Satan lied in the grand council. He was imitating the Saviors intent. The saviors intent is to save all that the Father gives him to save. Satans plan was the opposite. Satans plan was to trick or lie his way into people accepting him as their savior. He did this through his secret combinations. His intent was to save nobody! He wanted them all to sin and then not provide a savior to save them and then he could rule over them unrighteously in hell forever! That is satans plan- it is how he destroys our agency. He takes away our freedom so that we are only excersized by justice- thus the chains of hell (loss of agency).
I will speak more later on the three glories.
I haven’t read all of the comments. I haven’t had time. I’ve thought about these issues quite a bit. I don’t have time or the energy to gather my sources for my ideas together, but here are my thoughts:
1. Could those “without law” in the verses quoted refer to those who are mentally handicapped and are thus like little children?
2. I think all men will be judged according to their works according to what they understand. In other words, if someone is a Catholic and yet abuses his wife, commits adultery, etc, I don’t know that accepting the gospel in the hereafter will do him much good. On the other hand, if he lived an upright life according to what he understood, accepted the gospel in the hereafter, he will be an heir of the Celestial glory.
3. Nearly all in the spirit world will accept the gospel (Wilford Woodruff and Lorenzo Snow both taught that). However, since men will still be judged by their works (see point above), there still may be few among the repentant dead who will be exalted in the Celestial glory.
4. I agree that vicarious baptism is not needed for anyone who wasn’t accountable at the time of their death nor will ever be needed. For that matter, Joseph Fielding Smith also said that the endowment will not be needed for those who die before the age of accountability. All the ordinances of the church (except the sealing ordinances), are for the redemption of fallen man. Those who are unaccountable are not fallen and therefore need no ordinances except the sealing ordinances.
Bryce,
It’s just bad logic to think some will be saved in heaven as grown adults who never entered into the covenant with the Father to be obedient to him in all that he commands. No one is exempt. To say that little children already proved themselves is a bad doctrine also. Are they better than Christ? Christ needed to be tested and grow from grace to grace, why not these little ones also?
Like I tried to state before, baptism has more purposes than just cleansing one from sin. Its main purpose is for initiation into the kingdom once they become accountable. Its like a new sheriff having to take the oath before coming into office. Its purpose is to fulfill the law unto every accountable person. Little children who die before becoming accountable will be raised to full maturity in the millennium. They must enter into the covenant relationship once they grow into maturity through baptism in order to fulfill the law in order to be saved. There is no automatic salvation without works (ordinances).
Satan was imitating Christ when he said he would save everyone that not one soul should be lost. This literally was centered towards those whom the Father would give to the savior to save. The purpose of the savior is to save all that the Father gives him to save that none should be lost. Satan was trying to convince us that he would be our savior- that he would save us. God of coarse knowing his evil designs and secret combinations in that premortal council, saw right through Satan and had him removed from heaven for rebelling against his plan. God immediately saw that Lucifer was lying about saving mankind. God knew that was not his intent. God knew that Lucifer was in fact lying through his teeth. God knew Lucifer only wanted to cause all men to fall so that he could reign over them in hell. Lucifer thought he could trick his way into beciming the savior so that he would ensure tha no one ever got saved because he wouldn’t nor couldn’t save them as a savior.
Agency is destroyed in some degree the moment we fall into temptation. This is why God said that Satan sought to destroy our agency- Satan was going to really cause man to sin so that his agency would be surrenderd over to justice. This is what being led into captive chains means- the destruction of our agency. Satans plans have not changed at all, he is still trying to destroy our agency through sin- the same intent as he presented himself at the grand council.
It is interesting that your site is all about the temple and defending it. As far as the plan of salvation is concerned according to the temple, we are all in the telestial kingdom right now. Our progression for salvation leads us back to the presence of the Father through the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms.
Bryce,
I think we are going to find that we just do not agree, that is fine. You do keep bringing up a point though that I want to address. You said-
“They need no baptism, and no endowment. Those ordinances are meant to cleanse fallen man and bring him back into the presence of God. Children have no such need.”
Why did Christ need baptism? He never was dirty or fallen in sin was he?
Ok, But I still see some faulty logic here. Lets take the marriage covenant for a moment and apply it to little children. Will little children need to be married before they are resurrected or after? And, if they are resurrected and then married will it need to be done by proxy? If it is done before they are resurrected will they grow into their marriage which has already been performed?
You see, the way I see it is that they will rise again in the millennium and then grow to their mature stature and then at that point find someone to marry. Of coarse this has contradictions with the gospel because it says that they are not given in marriage after they are resurrected. I think that some logic can be applied here that there may be some misinterpretation concerning the logistics of it all. Lets apply this logic to fully grown adults who die before or without marriage. Must they be married before they are resurrected? What if one of them dies and the other (the one they wish to marry) one is left on the earth to live and is still alive when Christ comes and they are quickened in the flesh? Will the one have to die so that they can be married as spirits or will they both be alive (resurrected) and still need their marriage sealing after their resurrection?
Bryce,
Thank you for this blog. I have always had questions about this doctrine. Your quotes from the brethren have been helpful. Your statement, “ordinance work cannot be done by or for resurrected beings” got me to thinking about who will be doing the temple work during the Millenium. It was my understanding that the rightous saints would come forth in the morning of the first resurrection which is to be at the beginning of the Millenium. If this is true, who does that leave to do the ordinance work? Does this mean the Prophet and those that hold the keys must wait to be resurrected until the end when all work has been done?
just a comment or two.. baptism of water never forgave anyone their sins. it is only an act to accept the laws of the ck that they are trying to enter. it makes the covenant but does not fulfill it. the second portion is the real deal by the laying on of hands for the gift of the holy ghost(the holy spirit of promise enforcing gods side of the covenant) and also to confirm them a member of the church/kingdom. Joseph Smith said that we need forgiveness of sins in this world and in the world to come. i believe that includes the terrestrial millennium as those not twinkled yet are still mortal, just more advanced ones. therefore we still need ordinances. Joseph smith also taught of those children who die being raised in the millennium by sealed couples (how can you be resurrected to a frame you never developed?) the reason we don’t baptize them is they will still get too on their own and make the oath and covenant of the priesthood requisite to exalt able celestial marriage: no priesthood no marriage.(also by laying on of hands) never confuse the words celestial kingdom for celestial world(glorified earth post final judgment)as they are not the same. being a mortal is a state of condemnation. not having that state to your charge because of Christ is not the same as being perfect. we where not perfect in the pre- and are taught that our inadequacies where covered under the future atonement (as spirits) just as the people of the old testament pre-Christ sacrifice. when Adam was kicked out of the garden the only thing he had done was lose his child innocence. the covenant had nothing to do with temptation by Satan. Adam did it with his own intentional choice even with the state of a child it did not exempt him from the test at all or he would not have been given the boot out. afterward god mentions their need to receive ordinances and redemption through the atonement as requirement to return to immortality. Joseph smith taught this its in chapter 18(221) of the new manual and gives new meaning to the word exaltation.”by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, FROM EXALTATION TO EXALTATION (emphasis mine)UNTIL YOU ATTAIN TO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings,,,,,
the book Priesthood and church government has a rare quote from Joseph smith about the endowment being intended to enhance priesthood power for the missionary’s of the time. and is the same reason all missionary’s are required to be endowed still. the exaltation Joseph mentioned are the endowments of power from the holy spirit of promise which seals all ordinances and fulfills Gods end of covenants. children being temporarily saved or guarded by the celestial kingdom after death to prepare for Resurrection like anyone else just means waiting for the future established opportunity. either by proxy in temples for those who failed to receive it in mortality as adults. or to grow up as a terrestrial mortal in the millennium and then receive them(then needing them, no longer being innocent)then being resurrected by twinkling. Resurrection is indeed an ordinance. but it could be considered that it is a chain of inseparable ordinances. originally we all came into this sphere having accepted the plan after eons of existence and preparation. the idea that after all that only a few will enter the celestial kingdom and possible additional exaltation is bogus to me. if anything children in the spirit world ck as pure people (adults as spirits) only proves that the celestial kingdom is the natural nature of gods children who accepted the plan. the veil does not change character it only hides knowledge otherwise it kills agency. if exaltation come by the holy spirit of promise. which acts upon the ordinance we administer. and also exaltation being the endowment of inheritance for godhood the purpose of the temple to prepare for the Resurrection of the just (a state not a time) than how can someone receive an inheritance they never covenanted for. the only place to do it is with the temple. Moroni was very correct with the exception that he never mentioned how….he may have not known how just had faith. baptism for the dead and proxy ordinances are nowhere in the book of Mormon. they made no mention of it at all and it would not have been in the brass plates either. he was in any case not required to mention it or the book couldn’t hold the fullness for the gospel. it is nowhere in the book yet the book is still true.
find me any man exalted (requiring celestial marriage) without being ordained by the laying on of hands followed by the holy spirit of promise. and i will eat my words otherwise no one is exalted without making and keeping the accompanying covenant. its that simple. also please excuse my rambling and my grammar its near 3am. I enjoy the website -Rex
I’ve only read the first few comments, so please forgive me if I am being redundant.
I sympathize with Rob on one account. The scriptures do seem to plainly teach that little children do not have need of baptism, yet at the same time they plainly teach that we are judged according to our works. It is a challenge for me to believe that millions of individuals receive exaltation simply because they die young. If that is the case, wouldn’t we all prefer to die so young?
“Please show me one reference to the scriptures or General Authorities which says that little children who die before the age of accountability will still need to be baptized in the Millennium, or receive their endowment.”
my point was….you give them a body back to grow up in the millennium a terrestrial one…so as to be later twinkled to celestial immortality. they still grow up and learn…won’t be a child anymore and will have agency and the whole caboodle. they will then have to enter the celestial gate of baptism having descended to a terrestrial state temporarily. and need to go back through the gate to get back in…baptism. the only celestial mortal to live on earth, the only perfect life was Jesus. there is a book you might like called ” the initiation of Jesus at Qumran” its a study of the dead sea scroll accounts of what Jesus did after his baptism by john and disappeared to commune with his father… they recorded his endowment! administered by the translated Melchizedek by whom received the fullness of the priesthood so as to get the keys of Resurrection from the father. he received all the ordinances…despite his perfect sinless character. he did it because although celestial he was still mortal and therefore went through all the ordinances.
Adam in like condition of Christ; standing before the father for being mortal. both where baptized directly in front of the Father. both had the ordinance sealed by the holy ghost. president smith should have made distinction of the difference between being tested by Satan and being tested by the adversary. which by definition is mortality because it is the adverse condition we experience…. anyone who attains a mortal body must demonstrate mastery of it in order to get through the logic gates of the ck. in Hebrew the word Adam generically means …man ,or mankind. the association and implication is the heart of the endowment and why we do it. we are Adam, Christ by prophecy was called the second Adam because he was the second completely perfect… man; created on the earth. the first transgressed to a lower state. the second reversed it back to immortality to bring back eternal life through joint heir-ship.
that is the reason those children must grow up in the millennium. a child hasn’t mastered anything let alone their body. how can someone who hasn’t even overcome basic puberty be ready for the overwhelming experience of immortality. this life according to the book of Mormon is the time to prepare to meet God. or in other words meeting God for eternal life requires preparation. they will grow up in the millennium as terrestrial mortals, prepare the same way Jesus did, and then be twinkled..how hard is that? Jesus Christ is the judge of mankind not president smith. he is not qualified to make such statements saying who wont make it without a revelation from Jesus… the prophets are not the head of the church. show me the revelation he got that from or the actual canonization and then I’ll accept it as more than his opinion. the endowment, the revelation from God the father t0 Adam (us) demonstrates that the ordinances are required for eternal life. the endowment is a compilation of ordinances… and according to Brigham young we wont get past the angels who stand as sentinels with out those keys and a new name. Adams endowment started with his baptism. the modern temples start with a baptismal font. the ancient tabernacle had a font. the unleavened bread ordinance in the tabernacle on the Sabbath shows that the sacrament is also a temple ordinance. hence the recent conference talk on the white shirts symbolic of the temple garment… all the ordinances are temple ordinances… as Jesus pointed out in the new testament the building was symbolic of his body…our bodies are the temple the endowment is the symbolic process that all men must do to demonstrate that we are mirroring Jesus perfect life to be a joint heir. how can anyone be like him to obtain heir ship without doing what he did? then there is this twinki… Adam did not realize his wife was even naked or any meaning to it without the fruit of the tree and losing that innocence. although married not mentally capable of delivering.. so how could any immortal even if married have spirit children if their mind is still that of a child not being able to distinguish good from evil. they would be in the same situation as Adam not mentally capable of creating or leading a family in the ck. even if they somehow succeed in spirit procreation on accident. what would the have to teach without the knowledge to discern between good and evil you would have children teaching children body type not withstanding. we need the knowledge of good and evil to become celestial parents.-Rex
Bryce,
I don’t know why I didn’t think of this before but if what you said yesterday, “As far as I understand current revelation, all marriages (sealings) must take place before the resurrection. “, wouldn’t this mean that Jesus Christ had to be married/sealed to someone while he was still alive on earth (or maybe during his 3 days in the spirit world?)
Bryce,
I believe that it is quite probable that no one will have a celestial glorified body in the resurrection when Christ comes. Christ is only bringing the “terrestrial glory” when he comes to the earth at the start of the millennium. The earth as such will be quickened by that glory- the terrestrial. That is why it will be called the terrestrial kingdom. Those having “terrestrial” bodies will thus inhabit it. It says that those of a “celestial spirit” shall be given the glory by which their bodies are quickened. Look at this verse-
96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 88:96)
The glory at Christs coming is not yet the celestial but only the terrestrial. Therefore, a person resurrected at that time will only come forth by the power of the glory by which they are quickened at that time which will be terrestrial, even the earth will only be quickened into a terrestrial glory with a terrestrial sphere (body) at that time. The earth only is quickened with glory according to the glory Christ brings at that time. Because we know the earth will not be crowned with its celestial glory at Christs coming we can thus deduce that Christ is not coming in celestial glory to reign upon the earth during the millennium.
improvment era june 1904 president joseph f smith spoke of in the restitution children would develop to the full stature of man..my only difference is that i believe a full immortal state unachievable while still growing.. Joseph smith taught they would be raised by sealed parents..therefore they still need to be taught…that would include the exaltation ordinances of the temple to later be exalted…they would be taught good and evil and would need baptism though perfect just like Jesus though perfect.-Rex
Bryce,
There really isn’t much information regarding the resurrection at the beginning of the millennium. People assume that they will be resurrected to the glory that they will inherit in the end- that it is somehow unchangeable. People also assume that they will be resurrected with the glory that they have lived up to in mortality. Many saints therefore suppose that they will be resurrected with the celestial glory at the beginning of the millennium because they have obeyed the law of the gospel. The problem is however that they have only lived up to a part of the law of the gospel- not its fulness which is what celestial glory is. The other problem is that they assume that they can go from the telestial kingdom straight to the celestial kingdom.
There are many errors in our thinking when it comes to discussing the glories and the kingdoms of glory. Many have supposed that telestial law and glory is obedience to worldly (carnal) laws while terrestrial law is a law of delayed gratification etc.. They then suppose that anything righteous is only celestial law and therefore their resurrection must be celestial in grade. What many do not realize is that anything less than the fulness of gods laws are that of a lower order or kingdom. These lower orders though are not unrighteous laws in any means though. In fact, the two lower orders of law in their fulness make up the majority of celestial law. All laws from god are celestial in nature, he has just given them to us in order of degrees so that we can learn them.
As this pertains to the discussion, everyone who has thus lived on the earth have only had the opportunity or ability to live up to the telestial level of the law while learning about higher terrestrial and celestial laws. Therefore, when the resurrection at the beginning of the millennium occurs, they will thus only come forth by the next level of law which will be the terrestrial. The pattern of the temple is very plain in this application-
We start our lives in the telestial kingdom where we can learn the most basic of principles and laws that save us. We are given the glory of the Holy Ghost while in this kingdom. Through obedience in this kingdom, we can receive the telestial blessings that are given to the faithful. These include being blessed with health or strength, authority to act in gods name, the gift of the holy ghost, etc. From here (this the telestial kingdom) we advance into the terrestrial kingdom which will be the earth during the millennium. The glory of the terrestrial kingdom will be all the blessings of the telestial along with the presence of Jesus Christ. This magnified glory (both the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ) will be that of the terrestrial glory. We will recieve different blessings in this kingdom than the previous. Some of these include no disease, no death, more light and knowledge concerning the mysteries of godliness, etc.
After we have shown obedience to the further laws god reveals in the terrestrial kingdom we shall be brought before the veil and give an accounting of our works (all the keys, signs, tokens and agreements we have entered into and kept accordingly), This is the final judgment/last judgment. If we prove faithful we will advance into celestial glory- the only place where the tree of life exists- the tree which gives never-ending physical and spiritual life. Remember that the “tree of life” is the same tree as the one that was in the garden for Adam and Eve. They were cut off from that tree when they disobeyed god because if they had eaten of the fruit of it they would have lived forever (physically). This same tree will exist on the celestial sphere as a blessing for the righteous to partake of.
This fruit is what grants the blessing of power over death (physical and spiritual). It is only given in the celestial glory though. It is a fruit that sustains an immortal body. People up to this point may have resurrected bodies, but until they can partake of the tree of life they do not have perfect immortal resurrected bodies. Christ at the end of the millennium will be given his perfect immortal body also- one without nail impressions in it and a hole in his side. Remember that only when a person is brought before a “celestial grade” body do they need to be transfigured in the body to see it. When Christ was resurrected, people did not need to be transfigured before him to behold his resurrected presence. This is because he only had a terrestrial/ telestial glory of body. It was not yet perfected and eternal.
There is a lot more work and research to do but i am quite convinced at this point that celestial resurrected bodies are the only bodies that are perfect (eternal in nature and therefore perfectly immortal).
Rob also said, “If we prove faithful we will advance into celestial glory- the only place where the tree of life exists- the tree which gives never-ending physical and spiritual life. Remember that the “tree of life” is the same tree as the one that was in the garden for Adam and Eve. They were cut off from that tree when they disobeyed god because if they had eaten of the fruit of it they would have lived forever (physically). This same tree will exist on the celestial sphere as a blessing for the righteous to partake of.” I would like to know where it says the Tree of Life only exists in the Celestial glory? The Garden of Eden was a Terrestrial glory and the Tree of Life was in the Terrestrial Garden of Eden.
Zak,
The tree of life is mentioned in the Book of Revelations. It exists only within the “holy city”- the New Jerusalem (the celestial kingdom).-
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
(New Testament | Revelation 2:7)
1 AND he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
(New Testament | Revelation 22:1 – 2)
Many have supposed that the “tree of life” mentioned here is a different tree than the one in the garden of Eden but in fact they are the same. It is true that the sons of perdition will be resurrected with a new body. But without partaking of the tree of life they willnot be able to sustain that perfect body and it will be destroyed. Only the righteous will be able to have access to the fruit that gives never-ending physical life.
28 And I said unto them that it was an awful gulf, which separated the wicked from the tree of life, and also from the saints of God.
29 And I said unto them that it was a representation of that awful hell, which the angel said unto me was prepared for the wicked.
As far as the garden and world in Adams day are concerned, we do not know of what order or glory it was.
(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 15:28 – 29)
Bryce,
Maybe you misunderstood me before on the meaning of laws and glories. Like I said earlier, all laws made by god are celestial in principle even though he does give us laws of different degrees and orders. Lower laws like the telestial and terrestrial are just basically laws and principles of the celestial in the lower degree. You pasted-
“Elder McConkie wrote:
This [telestial] law is the law of the world, and worldly people are conforming to its terms and conditions. Those who refuse to worship the true and living God, who are unclean and immoral, who are proud and rebellious, who walk in paths of wickedness, who are carnal and sensual, who do not maintain standards of decency, uprightness, and integrity, are as a result conforming their lives to the provisions of telestial law… All the inhabitants of the earth are living at least a telestial law, unless, perchance, there are some who are in open rebellion against the truth… (Mormon Doctrine, 778)”
Elder McConkie is dead wrong here! Sorry, but it is true. Telestial law is not carnality, worldliness or anything lawless of the such! Note that I said “lawless”, because that is what BRM describes as being law. This lawlessness does not bring blessings, it does not bring the presence of the Holy Ghost. In fact, if one continues in this lawlessness he will be delivered over unto hell and not be blessed! We are in the telestial kingdom right now and we have been given the law while in this kingdom- thus the law of this kingdom. It is basically the preparatory gospel- basic obedience to the “saving” part of the gospel- the part that enables us to enter into the path. It includes the blessings of the Aaronic priesthood according to the temple. The telestial law also includes the ten commandments.
We need to get out of the mindset of “telestial” being something “carnal” or “worldly”. We should remember that the Kingdom of god exists and is set up in the telestial kingdom- it is our church we belong to and worship with in meeting houses every Sunday. That kngdom will grow and proceed through this kingdom and the next and then at the end of the next it will include all of the saved and be presented spotless before the Father. As part of that Kingdom we have been given laws and principles to abide by- that advance us into the next kingdom. The Priesthood is also broken down into 3 degrees of order they are-
Telestial: Aaronic
Terrestrial: Melchizedik
Celestial: Patriarchal
In the temple as we progress from kingdom to kingdom as part of our eternal progression, we are given laws to obey that pertain to differing standards or degrees of the priesthood which translate directly into differing levels of righteous obedience. The important principle though is that all three priesthoods are required to enter the celestial glory because all three degrees of the law make up the celestial law in its fulness. Joseph Smiths view of the eternities was forever changing throughout his life. In the end Joseph knew that it would be impossible for man to be saved from hell without compliance to the gospel law- it being the only law that exists. He came to understand that the gospel law itself was made up of degrees of glory- that it represented the rungs of a ladder that must be climbed one at a time (without skipping any) until one reaches perfection in the highest law or kingdom. That said, I do not agree that one can go from telestial glory (what we have right now) immediately into the celestial at resurrection. We have to experience the terretrial order and learn according to its principles before we can advance to the celestial just as the temple teaches. The endowment is specific in that all men must pass through and covenant with law in both of the lower kingdoms of glory before they can be enthroned in glory in the celestial. It truly is line upon line.
Bryce, Rob,
Good discussion. I don’t want to discount your opinions, but they are just “opinions”. What is most troubling about this conversation is the fact that we have several conflicting quotes from general authorities. Joseph Fielding Smith says, speaking of little children who die before age eight, “and all the blessings will be theirs through their obedience”. Note that this prophet says they will receive all the blessings ACCORDING TO THEIR OBEDIENCE. Obedience to what? If they can’t ever be tempted, then they can’t prove themselves “obedient”. Thus, the conundrum. Either they WILL be tempted at some point in time (what about the short season at the end of the millennium when satan is loosed into the world again?) and be allowed to exercise their agency in order to obey, or they will not. You can’t have it both ways even though past General Authorities of the church have expressed opinions on BOTH sides. It just doesn’t jibe.